Friday, January 20, 2012

Apathetic Selflessness on NPD forums.



There is one in every crowd. The passively hip are masters of the soothing demeanor while still frustrsating a person to death. They are just as much about things being their way or the highway as any raging narcissist. When a raging loon pisses you off you know exactly why. The acquiescent bully will never raise their voice, yet leave a person every bit as pissed off and befuddled as any cluster-B. 
They are measured and polite. They carefully consider their words and seem willing to meet you somewhere in the middle. But it is you always capitulating and them never budging an inch. 
They are generous. They are willing to devote their time to you.
They want to enlighten you.
You are angry.
They are not.
You are unhinged.
Not to worry they say. I, the altruistic humanitarian, will be leading you  to a new way of thinking. 
Which is another way of saying, I will speak and you will agree with me, and if you don't, I will gently but firmly keep nudging you back to the correct mind set.
MINE!
I also question the members that are never going to go no contact. I know how presumptuous that makes me sound. I would never try and force that decision on another. But it makes me question the severity of the underlying disorder of their narcissist. 
I've seen people driven out of their homes. I knew of a homeless woman who posted from the library. And these people are told to shut their yaps by someone who's father made him go into the family medical profession. Had a medical degree paid for and was set up in practice.
Ans boo fucking hoo because their real dream was to sell salvage auto parts out on route 66.


Here are the posts that led me to leave a support group. Not all posts on the thread are here. But the ones here have not been altered.
There was an ongoing debate about the difference between narcissist and sociopath's. I say potato and they potahto. I called the whole thing off.   


Forum Member:
I am glad I was born. We would not exist had our parents not had us. There are so many screwed-up parents in this world, I find PD parents are merely a strange subset because they appear so normal. If we mandate CPS take children away from PD parents all hell would break loose, it is very hard to prove someone is PD and it's a false charge that would be very easy to make stick.
I really think the damage occurs after we're 18 in very large part. I have no regret that I was allowed to stay in the home I was.
Doug.(me):
I agree. That my mother seduced my sisters boyfriend and had him rob and murder my fathers boss was a one off.
Forum Member:
You read about parents starving their kids, and PD people are so good at appearing normal, you just know if we mandate CPS take kids away from PDs it's the PD people who are going to PROJECT the PD onto otherwise normal parents, and here comes CPS to take their kids away from perfectly normal parents.
Forum Member:
Ns are a mild form of psychopath, with more vanity, is my understanding. AN overlap rather than strict subset.
Forum Member:
Someone I know from another support group refers to my NM as a P and it's really irritating. It's jarring enough to deal with all of this stuff, and I'm already NC and taking care of myself. She's an N, which means she'll go to a lot of lengths to protect her own ego and remain superior.
I don't think it's anyone's place to assign labels to my own parents. And frankly what is the point, how does it help? It hurts more than anything.
Forum Member:
I don't see why this should be a point any of us need to get caught up in, and I very much dislike the splitting and bickering that result from persuing such arguments. It may harken back to our habit of living in our heads (ie, dealing with intellectual information only and to the exclusion of dealing with our emotions). Or perhaps it speaks to our ACON heightened sensitivity to any perceived criticism since we grew up feeling attacked for "being wrong" and/or "being bad". We don't need to pick out someone to be right and someone else to be wrong here in this group. We need to remind ourselves that this group is our safe place to bear witness to each others painful experiences, related to our common history with narcissists, and our place to give and receive the support we need to heal. Can we please let go of the other stuff? Thank you.
Forum Member:
I hope we don't lose the honesty here, I very much appreciate the honest feedback. Im so used to lies that its refreshing to have an honest opinion. I think we need that to grow in our journey.
Me (getting tired of the touchy feely):
I have a sociopath. She is also a narcissist. She is an N 24/7. You wouldn't call her a sociopath except for her yearly episodes of sociopath behavior.
There are sociopaths. And there are narcissist's who will become sociopaths. For all of you that wallow in medium chill. Tell your N you are tired of their shit and you will be leaving never to return. Watch them ramp up into a person you have never seen before.
No really.
Go do it.
Right now.
Call them up and tell them you are tired of their incessant hounding and badgering and you are removing yourself from the equation. Then tell me there is a difference between a sociopath and a narcissist
Forum member:
Seeking to understand why these discussions are polarizing, on both ends. Why is it constructive to some? Why is it upsetting to others?
Douche bag mod wanna be:
My impression is, by the way, that this whole area isn't completely 'clear cut' even when listening to the experts. Some even say that 'sociopath' and 'psychopath' are interchangeable terms, while others say they are labels for somewhat different things. Also, I've read that 'psychopath' isn't always considered a professional term but that it's supposed to be 'antisocial personality disorder'. Lots of variations 'out there'. I'd agree that these types of more 'academic' matters aren't necessarily the foremost concern here, but rather support/validation and communication with others in acon type situation.
Me snapping:
You can ignore my post all you want to. But spending time trying to differentiate between an N and a sociopath is differentiating six and half a dozen.
Douche bag:
Doug,I may be wrong, but I think ****** meant that 'academic' discussions (like she herself might write) could be skipped by those who aren't particularly interested
Me again:
So our pathological thinking is our fault and not the fault of our disordered parents. And we have no right to feel what we feel, and be triggered by what triggers us. What stuff do you want us to let go of? Can you give us a list of allowable triggers so we don't offend you. I read yesterday that NPD's are merely quirky. But all in all no big deal.
Do you believe this as well?
Douchebag:
Doug, I imagine she didn't mean that disagreeing with downplaying the destructiveness of these n's and p's should stop. Any such downplaying should be scrutinized very seriuosly, and I'm picturing ****** would agree, but that she thinks no one should be 'cast' here in a role as 'academic' (and have to defend such a role), since we're rather all here as hurt victims.
Me ever the horses ass:
Why don't you let her speak for herself. I don't speak for others and I don't want to listen to others rationalizing for them. If she wants to start a war she can stick around and fight it herself.
Douchebag:
My comment was because the post read different to me than how it seems to me you perceived her meaning.
I trust you have good reason to see her message as you did, and, again, the reason I'm commenting is that, like I mentioned in another reply, this topic isn't one I have strong feelings about.
My intention is not to rationalize, but to offer that from my point of view her intention may not have looked we expressed, but my impression is she didn't try starting a war, but had a more peaceful intention.
I'm offering you my view on her post, as a kind of neutral third party.
Like I say, I don't support her view that these topics shouldn't be discussed.
Me:
It was you that said NPD's are quirky but not really a problem. Instead of speaking for "********" explain that. If NPD's are merely quirky why are you here?
My great grandmother chewed tobacco. That was quirky.
My mother destroyed my family and caused collateral damage in the families of all the guys she had affairs with.
Can you compare and contrast that?
Douchbag:
I am ******* and I must have serious multiple personality disorder if I posted that yesterday. :-P
The view you mention is one I couldn't disagree with more.
Whoever posted the 'quirky' comment yesterday here was someone else. And probably in the extreme minority on this particular mail list.
Me:
Quirky may not be the word but it was you who said they were harmless.
Douchebag:
Again, I don't see how I would have ever expressed such a view. I've never held that view, Doug. My wording may have been poor, it probably often is. I don't remember what I wrote here yesterday, but I'll be happy to clarify whatever it was.
Me:
It may have been a one off but you said it. I couldn't miss it blindfolded. There is so much shit from you that it is impossible to sort through it all. (this guy posts something every 90 seconds)
Douchebag:
Your wording could have seemed unfitting in this particular forum, for people who have in fact suffered from being around n's.If you're upset with something someone say, it's ok to say that right away. I, for one, am at least happy to hear about it.I'm not discounting your feelings. However, if I helped create them by how I expressed myself yesterday, there has been a misunderstanding.
Me:
One other thing. I never said anyone was against me. Those are your words. Let others speak for themselves and I will speak for myself.
Me again:
Sorry. I don't need this ********* guy telling me what every one else means. I don't need him interpreting my own words to me. I don't want him telling me what I will regret when what I am supposed to regret in the world according to ******** is telling him to let some one speak for themselves.
He hasn't been here long. And even if he had been here since the get go that doesn't mean he gets to tell me how to feel.
I haven't acted out in a destructive way. I am asserting rights my narcissist never afforded me and I will not have my fingers rapped for doing so.
*****Watch this. This is me reeling it in and trying to make amends*********
Despite how my words may seem. I don't have as big of a problem with you( ********) that it may seem. I think you are so comfortable here that you are taking on more of the group think than is what is healthy. Like I said before. I trust anger. There is truth in anger. I see a bunch of people still walking on eggshells. I think it is healthy to respect others and tip toe around them. But how can you guys not be angry about what you suffered at the hands of your tormentors? Get mad! Don't measure your words. I want to hear how pissed you all are. This isn't a tea party.
Douchbag: ******(passively not accepting me making amends)********
Well, you're confusing me. :-) I could have sworn you were pretty angry. So if I wrote in a way easy to mistake yesterday, you're doing it now.
If you're not angry at me, you have to be more careful if you don't want me to think so. I pretty sensitive, to say the least (which may also be the case for others here, I don't know).
I take my anger out at karate practice and playing Assault Cube. :-) In here I'm just trying to 'crystalize' a lot of very confused thoughts.
Forum member:
In the vein of Telling It, I'd like to mention to this Doug guy that he doesn't have any business saying that he thinks I wasn't exposed to a true NPD. I did not seek out this forum by accident. :p What I would like to request is that the forum remain polite. I would like to imagine that if someone, even me perhaps, has something to say, that one can say it without walking around on eggshells, as you say, first. I suppose that there is a time and a place for everything, anger too. I just was hoping that this would be a place that I could gain some tools for dealing with the hostility, malice, and profound selfishness that I get from one of my parents. If I've got an inbox full of vitriol to me that's counterproductive.
(I used the words some of you. So of course that meant specifically her)
Me:
Fair enough. 
And I clicked out of the group

  

14 comments:

CZBZ said...

Excerpted from your post: “Call them up and tell them you are tired of their incessant hounding and badgering and you are removing yourself from the equation. Then tell me there is a difference between a sociopath and a narcissist.”


You are spot on! At this point, I write a lot about 'LowerCase narcissism'. I used to write about UpperCase Narcissism because it was hard for me to face the N's volatility---the narcissistic rage and projected hatred. My automatic reaction was to minimize the danger, rationalize it. Defend myself against it. Writing made it real...writing was an act of self-preservation.

I don't know that people can understand the danger if they haven't dealt with pathological narcissists but assume they are experts on narcissism. Maybe people (even on forums) understand narcissism, as in LowerCase narcissism? Everyone picks up narcissistic traits so perhaps people assume the Pathological Narcissist is no different than they?

This is an excerpt from my blog, backing up what you've written: “Woe be the person who pokes pins in a malignant narcissist’s bubble! You may need to run for your life...I am not kidding. He will want to kill you.”

~Normal or Malignant Narcissism? (http://n-continuum.blogspot.com/2010/01/should-i-tell-narcissist-hes-narcissist.html )

In my understanding, malignant narcissists are on the same scale as antisocial pds and psychopaths/socipaths. Malignant narcissism is a smaller percentage than everyday solipsistic narcissism.

Some people will never know the difference until they’re dead.

And about support forums for victims of Narcissists? Yours and everyone's comments are completely valid. I appreciate criticism of online groups because forums have the potential to educate and empower people. They might also be a source for “secondary victimization”.

As a forum manager, I occasionally bear the brunt of recovering members’ displaced rage although in ten years of managing forums, this has only happened a couple of times. And I have corresponded with thousands of people, so that’s pretty good odds.

Still, no forum is 100% safe. Not for members and not for managers, either! Ha!


Hugs,
CZ

Anonymous said...

(head/keyboard)
Oh crap. I barely made it through the first comment: "PD parents are MERELY A STRANGE SUBSET"??!! HUH? And Douche bag alternates between "Knight In Shining Armor," The Karate Kid, "Mr. Sensitive," back-pedals, pontificates, denies his words from the day before -hell, all he or anyone in that group could have done was pull up the posts from the day before and quote their words back to them (stuff them down their throat which is my "PC-NOT") way of, ahem, "clarifying." I find it interesting that wasn't done by Douche himself if he's claiming he didn't say that or something damn similar. Then we have Ms. Thang complaining her in-box is full of "vitriolic messages"....my, my, my....can't IMAGINE how THAT occurred! Or more importantly what it says about how effin' TONE DEAF that poster clearly is. Sounds to me like you got a "two-fer" minimally in that whole mess. There's so much here to dissect and I think there's a length limit on responses so I'll leave that for the moment. I thought your challenge to "Call 'em up" actually was a great "Litmus Test."

Yes, there's at least ONE 'PC'/Wishywashy/Kumbaya-strummin'/takin' over with-the-velvet-glove, commin' in through the back door approach, self-appointed "expert" in every bunch. And the "academic discussions"-don't even get me started on that crap-there's a similar thread on the only forum I post on and I'm avoiding it like it's an IED. I'm already skating on stuff there that's so thin I wouldn't drill a hole to ice fish cuz I'll be a frozen hunk of fish food in less time than it takes The Barbarian to pull the trigger. I don't care WHAT you wanna call my MNmomma: MN, ASP, ABC, NBC, XYZ-I call her EVIL. And I make NO bones about it, and the hair-splittin' exercises don't change MY reality *one* bit.
Speaking of which, I'll be the first to admit I have violent, sadistic fantasies when I see stuff like this. I'd like to ship these people my MNmomma or The Barbarian for a couple days "vacation." These nice, harmless looking little-old-ladies will make them true believers in euthanasia within 48 hrs. Wanna send her back? No problem and no cost! Since I live in The Tundra and you can't get here from there just load 'er up in the unpressurized cargo hold and send her on her way....problem solved.
This guy was more than boring, IMO. He's dangerous. As ACoNs we have laser-accuracy BS detectors. We've had all the plays "played" throughout our lives, trained by the very best of the worst. And if your biggest problem is your parent is merely annoying, bitches about the cost of your Wedding dress, chews their food with their mouth open, WTF are you doing at an Narc site? If anger isn't a NORMAL RESPONSE to all we've been through, you must be hittin' the X pretty heavy. Or drooling.

upsi said...

The holier-than-thou, I-only-want-support-on-my-journey attitude displayed by these folks sends up so many red flags. I can't believe that comment about "they do the most damage after we're 18" - UMMMMM WHAT?????????????? Are you fucking kidding me? And up until then it was what, a cake walk?

That is ass backwards narc-apologist minimization-of-abuse if I've ever seen it. The original poster seems more worried about protecting so called "normal" parents than about protecting children, which brings this discussion into focus quite nicely. Call it whatever the fuck you want, it's damaging, it's something we have a duty to fight for the sake of innocent children.

There's no nice little ribbon to put over all the pain and havok, there's no silver lining to being abused. And the worst thing these people have to contend with is the irritation of having to contend with another label???

"We need to remind ourselves that this group is our safe place to bear witness to each others painful experiences, related to our common history with narcissists, and our place to give and receive the support we need to heal. Can we please let go of the other stuff? "

NO WE MOTHERFUCKING CAN'T JUST LET GO OF THE "OTHER" STUFF, no we can't because it's not YOUR place to decide what is central and what is other. No we can't let it go because that's what we've been doing our whole lives.

Wanna know why it's polarizing? Because some people want to face the truth, and some people don't. And the panties get all twisted when people who want to stay numb and passive don't quite like what the truth might call them to do.

Once you've seen a narcissist's true face, you'll never need to doubt who they are. You'll never get your panties twisted about finding the most accurate label because it doesn't matter. What matters is that you STOP LIVING YOUR LIFE LIKE THEY'RE HARMLESS AND QUIRKY and pony up to the big business of facing the beast.

upsi

q1605 said...

Damn I love you guys. It would be easier to be heard by these guys if I didn't default to being such a sarcastic little bastard. I don't know where that comes from, but when confronted with stuff like this it's where I go.
I was TRYING to send them a message. Don't be fooled. I was looking out for their dumb asses.
Siegfried and Roy liked to make their Tigers bark like dogs. Until his favorite one liked to have bit his head off.
They can't say I didn't warn them.
Head on keyboard anon. That's what set me off. If they are merely a strange subset then why are we all here?

q1605 said...

Hey Tundra ACON. I was cleaning house today and I think I have found a nifty do it yourself crematorium.
I would like to try jamming the Barbarian in the oven and setting it on the self cleaning cycle.
I was amazed at the dust it turned all the spilled food into in ours.
Then whack her with a hammer and watch her collapse into a fine powder like movie vampires do when they get hit by sun light.
I may test this with on one of my 5 cats.... no, they are my wife's cats. And it is more like 4 and 5/8ths cats. One stays gone so much we have reduced his citizenship weight to slightly more than a half cat.
But I don't think anyone would notice if one went missing.

Anonymous said...

I'd leave the cat out of it-these mn/psychopaths have already taken enough innocent lives.

Since The Barbarian's too big for the microwave-well, that could simply be a technical difficulty-ask Wayne Gacey, he can give ya pointers if someone hasn't offed him in prison yet-the oven would work. But here's the thing: It stinks. I don't think all the douche, FHS, cheap perfume will help with the smell but it may enhance flammability. And you'd have to ask your DW what time she plans dinner. And you'd have to replace the over after-the cremation, not dinner. But somehow it is appealing seeing as how she stuffed someone in a trunk. There's a kind of a nice synchronicity about death in small places to this plan.

Wonder if The Barbarian would clean up as nice as the oven?!

(PS: Ain't we a bunch of sick f'ers? Gawd, probably scare off ANY new potential commentators!)

q1605 said...

(PS: Ain't we a bunch of sick f'ers? Gawd, probably scare off ANY new potential commentators!)

I know! I thought I was as sick as they come. You my friend, are an ever expanding universe of nauseating repugnance.
Sometimes you gaze into the septic tank.
Sometimes the septic tank gazes into you.

q1605 said...

You haven't heard the news?
The bad news is John Wayne Gacey escaped from prison.
The good news is Justin Bieber is missing.

vicariousrising said...

I think you are awesome. :)

I recently went NC after going from LC to too-freaking-much-soul-sucking contact. I realized that not only did trying to deal with my narcissist mother is not only mentally stressful, it made me gain weight! I didn't do anything differently except try to work on a relationship with her, and in 9 months packed on pounds. Now, 3 months after going NC and again changing nothing else, the weight fell off.

I replaced stressing over my mother with taking up the guitar, something I've always wanted to try.

These people who think narcissists & sociopaths are just mildly bad parents must be delusional or not know of what they speak. For their sakes, I hope it is the latter. Annoying though I find them, I wouldn't wish my childhood on anyone.

q1605 said...

Amen Sistah!

Anonymous said...

Q, Those who make excuse for the sociopaths behavior infuriate me. People won't even acknowledge that these people are socios. This is what happens in my conversations with them. They are "mentally ill," "they are on drugs that make them behave that way. Bull****!!! They are socios. These people insult my intelligence and deny my dealings with socios when they say these things.

I find that these people always end up sticking their foot in their mouths and have no clue of their own contradictions. Most people when you try to talk to them about the facts of anything, they aren't really listening. They "know" and you don't. Even though they don't have the knowledge or facts to back it up...idiots...

q1605 said...

If only I had the luxury of academic debate. The sociopath at my house was no joke. You let your guard down around her and she would eat you alive.

Anonymous said...

"If only I had the luxury of academic debates" Lol, yeah but they are usually only one sided. According to them, I'm to stupid to even know what a sociopath is.

q1605 said...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_it_when_I_see_it


The phrase "I know it when I see it" is a colloquial expression by which a speaker attempts to categorize an observable fact or event, although the category is subjective or lacks clearly defined parameters. The phrase was famously used in this sense by United States Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart to describe his threshold test for obscenity in Jacobellis v. Ohio (1964). In this case obscenity was protected speech under the Roth test, and could not therefore be censored.

I Even as a kid I knew that a woman who robbed and killed her husband's boss with her daughters boyfriend as an accomplice wasn't right in the head. But our whole goddamn family ran to her side and bailed her out literally and metaphorically, and we have been paying for it since.