Friday, June 5, 2015

Vita Jex The Original Blue Pill


When it comes to NPD I have been to the mountain top.... And all I found was the same miserable shit that was at the mountain bottom. 





http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/howto.html............from the blog of joanna ashmun.


Never love anything that can't love you back

Life being the way it is, a couple of weeks after I'd drafted this page, but before showing it for comments, I received the following joke in my email. It reminds me of something an old woman said: "I don't think the devil looks ugly and frightening. If he did, people wouldn't find him so attractive. The devil must be a handsome man." And the devil's sister is a pretty woman, as often as not.


"If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...."
To my knowledge, none of the narcissistic individuals I've known personally have had official diagnoses of Narcissistic Personality Disorder; they have not sought help and so haven't been assessed clinically. On the other hand, members of their families have sought help to cope with them -- and I have sought help in understanding every one of them! Thus these pages.

These are field notes -- that is, descriptions and observations to assist in identifying narcissists and also, I hope, to give aid and comfort to others who live and work with narcissists. I'm sorry that I cannot also give hope, but, since a prime characteristic of narcissists is believing that they are always right no matter what, narcissists are extremely resistant to change and, unfortunately, tend to get worse as they get older.
I have also never had to cope with a physically aggressive or sadistic narcissist. The narcissists I've known have pretty much stuck to neglect and verbal and emotional abuse. But lots of people have not been so lucky, and their narcissist parents or partners have been relentlessly interfering and cruel in efforts to reform and re-form their "beloveds," including but not limited to plastic surgery or bleaching and perming little babies' hair to make them more perfectly beautiful blondes. [If you had a narcissist for a parent, you may find some of these books helpful.]


Nearly everyone has some narcissistic traits. It's possible to be arrogant, selfish, conceited, or out of touch without being a narcissist. The practical test, so far as I know, is that with normal people, no matter how difficult, you can get some improvements, at least temporarily, by saying, essentially, "Please have a heart." This doesn't work with narcissists; in fact, it usually makes things worse. [See discussion of the relationship between normal personality traits and personality disorders.]
It's impossible to overemphasize the importance of narcissists' lack of empathy. It colors everything about them. I have observed very closely some narcissists I've loved, and their inability to pay attention when someone else is talking is so striking that it has often seemed to me that they have neurological problems that affect their cognitive functioning. These are educated people with high IQs, who've had ordinary middle-class backgrounds and schooling, and their thinking is not only illogical but weird: with narcissists, you have to know them pretty well to understand their behavior. For instance, they always fill in their gaps (which make up just about the entirety of their visible life) with bits of behavior, ideas, tastes, opinions, etc., borrowed from someone else whom they regard as an authority. Their authoritative sources, as far as I know, are always people they've actually known, not something from a book, for instance, and narcissists' opinions may actually come from someone you know, too, but who is not to you obviously an authority on the matter at hand, so narcissists can seem totally arbitrary, virtually random in their motivations and reasoning. They are evidently transfixed by a static fantasy image of themselves, like Narcissus gazing at his reflection, and this produces an odd kind of stillness and passivity. Because their inner life is so restricted and essentially dead, it doesn't contain images of how to live a full life -- these things are not important to them, they expect others to look after day-to-day chores, they resent wasting their specialness on common things, they don't put their heart into their work (though they'll tell you how many hours they put into it), they borrow their opinions and preferences and tastes from whomever strikes them as authoritative at the moment.
From my personal experience, and from what I've seen in the clinical literature, narcissists don't talk about their inner life -- memories, dreams, reflections -- much at all. They rarely recount dreams. They seem not to make typical memory associations -- i.e., in the way one thing leads to another, "That reminds me of something that happened when I was...of something I read...of something somebody said...." They don't tell how they learned something about themselves or the world. They don't share their thoughts or feelings or dreams. They don't say, "I have an idea and need some help," or "There's something I've always wanted to do...did you ever want to do that?" They do not discuss how they've overcome difficulties they've encountered or continuing problems that they're trying to solve (beyond trying to get someone else to do what they want). They often say that they don't remember things from the past, such as childhood events, their schooldays or old friends, and it seems to me that they really don't most of the time. Anyhow, for all these reasons, I've tried to refrain from speculating about (i.e., novelizing) what goes on in their heads. Writer John Cheever(who recorded having been diagnosed as a narcissist when he went to marriage counseling at his wife's insistence) describes some of his persistent fantasy images -- and, with Cheever, they're very striking, as you'll know if you've read any of his fiction; his characters and plots tend to be narcissistic (i.e., self-obsessed tunnel vision spiraling into nihilism), but his stories often contain memorably glorious set pieces or tableaux, such as the the hunt for the golden Easter egg in one of the Wapshot novels. Cheever also gives unself-conscious expression to the ways in which his obsessive preoccupation with himself (and his penis -- sort of a magic wand in his mind) obstructed his ability to relate to his wife and children, obstructed even his ability to perceive them: to see what they looked like, to pay attention to what they said and did, though with Cheever everything is also soaked with the sorrows of gin. Alice Adams's novel, Almost Perfect, also gives things from a narcissistic point of view in a way that I found convincing and credible, based on my personal experience of narcissistic individuals. A striking thing about narcissists that you'll notice if you know them for a long time is that their ideas of themselves and the world don't change with experience; the ones I've known have been stalled at a vision that came to them by the age of sixteen.
There are different theoriess of how narcissists are made. Some psychologists trace NPD to early infantile neglect or abuse, and some blame over-indulgence and indiscriminate praise by parents who don't set limits on what's acceptable from their children. Others say that NPD shows up in adolescence. Some say narcissists tend to peak around middle age and then mellow out. Others say that narcissists stay pretty much the same except they tend to depression as they get older and their grandiose fantasies are not supported, plus they're not as good-looking as they used to be. The narcissists I've known have apparently always been "that way" and they get worse as they get older, with dramatic regression of their personas after the deaths of their parents and other personal authority figures who have previously exerted some control over the narcissists' bad behavior. And, yes, chronic depression gets to be obvious at least by their forties but may have always been present. Depressed narcissists blame the world, of course, and not themselves for their personal disappointments.
     Essentially, narcissists are unable or unwilling to trust either the world or other people to meet their needs. Perhaps they were born to parents unable to connect emotionally and, thus, as infants learned not to let another person be essential to them in any way. Perhaps NPD starts later, when intrusive or abusive parents make it dangerous for the child to accept other people's opinions and valuations. Maybe it comes from a childhood environment of being treated like royalty or little gods. Whatever the case, narcissists have made the terrible choice not to love. In their imaginations, they are complete unto themselves, perfect and not in need of anything anyone else can give them. (NB: Narcissists do not count their real lives -- i.e., what they do every day and the people they do it with -- as worth anything.) Their lives are impoverished and sterile; the price they pay for their golden fantasies is high: they'll never share a dream for two.

Now, it is possible to have a relatively smooth relationship with a narcissist, and it's possible to maintain it for a long time. The first requirement for this, though, is distance: this simply cannot be done with a narcissist you live with. Given distance, or only transient and intermittent contact, you can get along with narcissists by treating them as infants: you give them whatever they want or need whenever they ask and do not expect any reciprocation at all, do not expect them to show the slightest interest in you or your life (or even in why you're bothering with them at all), do not expect them to be able to do anything that you need or want, do not expect them to apologize or make amends or show any consideration for your feelings, do not expect them to take ordinary responsibility in any way. But note: they are not infants; infants develop and mature and require this kind of care for only a brief period, after which they are on the road to autonomy and looking after themselves, whereas narcissists never outgrow their demands for dedicated attention to their infantile needs 168 hours a week. Adult narcissists can be as demanding of your time and energy as little babies but without the gratification of their growing or learning anything from what they suck from you. Babies love you back, but adult narcissists are like vampires: they will take all you can give while giving nothing back, then curse you for running dry and discard you as a waste of their precious time.
     It is also essential that you keep emotional distance from narcissists. They're pretty good at maintaining a conventional persona in superficial associations with people who mean absolutely nothing to them, and they'll flatter the hell out of you if you have something they can use or if, for some reason, they perceive you as an authority figure. That is, as long as they think you don't count or they're afraid of you, they'll treat you well enough that you may mistake it for love. But, as soon as you try to get close to them, they'll say that you are too demanding -- and, if you ever say "I love you," they'll presume that you belong to them as a possession or an appendage, and treat you very very badly right away. The abrupt change from decent treatment to outright abuse is very shocking and bewildering, and it's so contrary to normal experience that I was plenty old before I realized that it was actually my expression of affection that triggered the narcissists' nasty reactions. Once they know you are emotionally attached to them, they expect to be able to use you like an appliance and shove you around like a piece of furniture. If you object, then they'll say that obviously you don't really love them or else you'd let them do whatever they want with you. If you should be so uppity as to express a mind and heart of your own, then they will cut you off -- just like that, sometimes trashing you and all your friends on the way out the door. The narcissist will treat you just like a broken toy or tool or an unruly body part: "If thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off" [Matt. 18:8]. This means you.
     So, yes, it's possible to get along with narcissists, but it's probably not worth bothering with. If family members are narcissists, you have my deep sympathy. If people you work with are narcissists, you will be wise to keep an eye on them, if just for your own protection, because they don't think very well, no matter what their IQs, they feel that the rules (of anything) don't apply to them, and they will always cut corners and cheat wherever they think they can get away with it, not to mention alienating co-workers, clients, and customers by their arrogance, lies, malice, and off-the-wall griping. Narcissists are threatened and enraged by trivial disagreements, mistakes, and misunderstandings, plus they have evil mouths and will sayANYTHING, so if you continue to live or work with narcissists, expect to have to clean up after them, expect to lose friends over them, expect big trouble sooner or later.



If you're reading this because of problems with someone you know now, the chances are excellent that one or both of your parents was a narcissist. Narcissists are so much trouble that only people with special prior training (i.e., who were raised by narcissists) get seriously involved with them. Sometimes narcissists' children become narcissists, too, but this is by no means inevitable, provided stable love was given by someone, such as the non-narcissist parent or grandparents. Beyond that, a happy marriage will heal many old wounds for the narcissist's child. But, even though children of narcissists don't automatically become narcissists themselves and can survive with enough intact psychically to lead happy and productive lives away from their narcissistic parents, because we all love our parents whether they can love us back or not, children of narcissists are kind of bent -- "You can't get blood out of a stone," but children of narcissists keep trying, as if by bonding with new narcissists we could somehow cure our narcissistic parents by finding the key to their heart. Thus, we've been trained to keep loving people who can't love us back, and we will often tolerate or actively work to maintain connections with narcissistic individuals whom others, lacking our special training, find alienating and repellent from first contact, setting ourselves up to be hurt yet again in the same old way. Once narcissists know that you care for them, they'll suck you dry -- demand all your time, be more work than a newborn babe -- and they'll test your love by outrageous demands and power moves. In their world, love is a weakness and saying "I love you" is asking to be hurt, so be careful: they'll hurt you out of a sort of sacred duty. They can't or won't trust, so they will test your total devotion. If you won't submit to their tyranny, then you will be discarded as "no good," "a waste of time," "you don't really love me or you'd do whatever I ask," "I give up on you." (Note: In many instances, narcissists' demands are not only outrageous but also impossible to fulfill even if you want to please them. Plus if you actually want to do what they want you to do, that would be too much like sharing, so they won't want it anymore.)
     If you've had a narcissist for a parent, you are probably not afraid of dying and going to hell -- you have lived hell on Earth. Narcissists cannot be satisfied and do a tremendous amount of damage to their children and partners in their relentless demand for a perfect outer appearance to reflect the perfect inner image that obsesses them.Kyrie eleison.



Here follows a discussion of traits I've observed in the half-dozen or so narcissists of both sexes that I've known well over many years. Remember that narcissism is a personality disorder and narcissists' personalities are disordered: they don't make sense! They are not concerned with making sense and they are also impulsive, so you will waste your time trying to understand the details of every little thing they do.

47 comments:

Joan S said...

Ugh, that really hits it on the head. I'm starting to remember my mother was more sinister than I first thought, if that is possible.

q1605 said...

It's through no fault of your own. By definition the personality disordered are driven by some Freudian level demon running amok inside of their head making appearances in and out of the scene motivated by stimulus that we can't relate to.

Joan S said...

Begging for mercy from a narc is just ringing the dinner bell. I've been there with mother, with her constant humiliation, I did beg for mercy, then I got the worst.

q1605 said...

Joanna's blog was one of the first I encountered that made me realize it was my mother that was crazy and not me. Just reading that part about how asking them to lighten up just a bit only makes them blast you harder is exactly what my mother did. She did it with me and I watched her do it with all the other family members. I have a little platitude I used to use. And that was life is hard enough with out the people around you going out of their way to make it harder. Little did I know I was absentmindedly sending her the I am your kibble message.

Five Hundred Pound Peep said...

No dreams or introspection or ideas, it was like living with the living dead inside. Intellectually so bored to death as a child, I felt like I would die. Nothing touches them that is another thing too. I agree begging for mercy means they will get even worse. Mine was always believed. I think about how a narc turned the fake friend against me so easily, and how they are always believed and I'm not. It troubles me. I wonder if my poor brother knows as he is laying in recovery, she probably will tell him it's his fault he needed extensive heart surgery. I've heard her say worse to ill people.

q1605 said...

I don't think my mother had a positive thought or a productive endeavor her whole life through. She was like those fish that rides on a shark......But even they help keep the shark groomed. OK she was a barnacle.

Five Hundred Pound Peep said...

Mine could shop well and cook, beyond that not much. She even had an easy govt job, that I could only dream of. LOL about her being a barnacle. If spiders lived under the sea....LOL

q1605 said...

My mother was a great cook too. But she didn't cook if my father wasn't there. I mean never. Which I taught myself to do. But it was so transparent ...even to a six year old. Dad is on his way home and the stove is ginning up food....Or dad's working late so it will be a while. If at all.

q1605 said...

My mother almost landed a government job.........pressing license plates ar ar ar ar

q1605 said...

My mother was dead from the neck up.

mulderfan said...

I found that hard to read.

q1605 said...

Joanna usually writes in a linear fashion but this time she meandered a bit.

Elli G said...

"If you've had a narcissist for a parent, you are probably not afraid of dying and going to hell -- you have lived hell on Earth. " Uncanny...my exact thoughts like a month ago. I don't care if I die, I fail to see the point of living in the middle of a constant shit-storm.At least my body will stop aching from all the stress.Doesn't mean I want to die, I just don't care.Both options are fine with me.

My 2 cents, even really low contact is poisonous. The last few months a couple hours once a week was enough for the momster to devise a venomous attack against my husband and me. We are planning a safe escape in a few months, migrating half a globe away.No contact right now would be risky, she lives across the street from my toddler's daycare.The staff were told not to let her pick up the baby without my prior notice after she did once a couple months ago. They were looking at me like I was the mean one not letting poor grandma pick up the baby she "loves" so much. Fuck them all, they deserve to be ripped apart by a MN before treating another parent like that again.

q1605 said...

Elli I hate to chime in with too much negativity, but for me, shooting for normalcy was really setting my bar way to high to ever expect my life to catch up with my expectations. I kept an intact sense of purpose throughout most of my life. Pushing 60 like I am and now seeing in hind site how futile defending my self from my mother really was I sort of wonder why I bothered. Seeing her goal for our family was a whole lot of scorched earth to be left behind it would have been easier to just let her have her way and not expend all that energy trying to stay in one place. I still tend to get really negative feelings about it all. And for me staying in proximity of her and not going NC was like changing seats on the titanic. She was going to win no matter what and in hindsight I see how painfully real it was going to end up no matter what. I just wish she had aborted me and not foisted her so-called life on the me and the rest of us.

q1605 said...

In other words, if god magically appeared in front of me and offered me a do over I would buy a case of 40 oz malt-liquors and call in sick.

Elli G said...

A do over? What a thought to entertain! I'd go for having her die right after giving birth to me. She did try to undo me even before I was born, even though she had contractions kept me an extra week inside allegedly because her doc was on holiday... I came out looking like a dark smurf, barely breathing, filled to the rim with amniac fluid. The doctors managed to save me but then they sent me home with her.Heh, I guess they bought her story.

q1605 said...

I always work under the assumption that a second chance at a normal life would end up with a more normal life. But it might end up worse than the one we got.

q1605 said...

My first thoughts on what your mother has told you about your birth is a lie. I hate to always bring up the macabre when talking about my past but it's all I know. My mother told my sister that after my father shot himself she ran out front and cradled his head in her lap begging him to hold on until the ambulance arrived. What a shameless whore of a lie that was/is. She never got out of the seat she was sitting in and putting make up on ugly face. What makes it worse is that she is lying about one of my most personal experiences to the closet relative and confidant I have in this world. She would have to know I would have heard it from my sister someday. At this point I was 15 and my sister maybe 20-ish. So we had the bulk of our lives ahead of us to reconcile what my mother said compared to what she did.

q1605 said...

If their mouth is moving they are always telling a shameless lie.

q1605 said...

About her contractions versus your arrival. Knowing what lying sacks of shit they are I would guess she was trying to keep her butt cheeks clamped down until you could arrive fully formed and potty trained. Gawd that's tacky, but they really are that shameless.

q1605 said...

Elli are you familiar with the movie 2001: A space odyssey. I am pretty sure the significance of the monolith at first they show the monkeys finding it on the plains of Africa and how they find one on the moon and then on a moon of Jupiter.....The way I had it explained to me was that this was how a alien race has figured how to monitor what might become a potential threat from afar. That is, each encounter with a new monolith was just another step forward on mankind's march to interplanetary space travel and another progress report. Transposing this premise on to Narcissists. They put a lie out and see who reports back to them. And how loyal they are to the truth and how malleable they are to lies. Does that make sense? I think by making each lie more shameless than the last they see who can be counted on to get back to them with the lie how badly it gets distorted and how loyal they are to the cause of being a tool and destroying the people around them. It's like a sonar or radar ping that tests the medium and who will be loyal to the smear campaign etc etc.

Anonymous said...

"They put a lie out and see who reports back to them. And how loyal they are to the truth and how malleable they are to lies...It's like a sonar or radar ping that tests the medium and who will be loyal to the smear campaign etc etc."

Q, that's brilliant.--quartz

Elli G said...

Q, you got that right. I think my mother must have misheard “speed of lies” instead of “speed of light” when in high school and has been trying to break the 671 million per hour barrier ever since. She is getting close I have to admit. Do you have any other versions of the story that Barb shared with others apart from the crap she told your sister? There must be an awful lot of different ones…Just like lingerie, changed daily and in different styles for different occasions.

I haven’t seen this movie but what you say totally makes sense. They always test the waters to see how much crazy shit dropping out of their mouths one can handle. Unfortunately, there are enough idiots who are more than willing to buy into their stories just because they have nothing better to do. Makes them feel important to stand by the side of a “real life martyr”… Losers!

q1605 said...

I didn't think of that in a vacuum. It's all my mother did. I am pretty sure she never had a conversation that wasn't some sort of reconnaissance or testing of the waters

q1605 said...

Elli That one is the one that was so glaring I thought I might mention it. Her next one down is how she acted like she was just riding around in Denver and the police just saw her and arrested her like right out of the blue and with no cause. If I hadn't been subjected to the horror of that night I might not have found her lies so offensive. I just remember my sister telling me that and I stopped my sister mid sentence and told her to back up and confirm what she just told me.
Here's one that ranks up there but not quite. She was screwing my step fathers friend at her house and one of her neighbors called my step father at work and told him he needed to get home and see what his wife was up to. So he comes home and they dupe him into thinking there was nothing was going on. She and he had rented an apartment to use from then on out and From what I can tell he must have found a cancelled check for the rent. So she goes up to my grandmothers (her mom's) the next week end and do you think she could just dodge that bullet and shut the f up? Oh hell no! she drapes herself all over the house and tells everybody what a great mother she is and how she is paying my rent for me so I could work the graveyard shift and go to school during the day and not fall asleep behind the wheel. That bitch never gave me two nickles to rub together. And hell would freeze over before she paid my rent for me.

q1605 said...

Elli, I just reread your question about the different versions of that night that may be lurking between my ears. The thing about my perception of what went down is that's all I need to act on. I was there. I was the last person he talked to. That night there were three people there. My mothers mother, who died in 1996. And my mother who died in 2012. And me............ That's it. I don't need anyone else to explain anything to me about what happened ,or to lie about it. I have the dubious distinction of being the last of the Mohican's who was there and saw what went down. I have no agendas. Or at least none except to wipe the tape clean and get that shit out of my head. That's why it really flew up my neck. She completely invalidated his death so she could act like mother Teresa with my sister.

Elli G said...

Damn, I love the internet for many reasons but this time I hate it. Whenever I read your posts or the answers to my comments I try to imagine your tone of voice,you being angry, sad, funny, disappointed.In this last comment I can't imagine what your intonation was at all. Do I make sense? Please tell me to shut up if I don't. My point is, I hope I don't make you angry by asking inappropriate things.

The biggest lie my momster has ever told everyone including me is that she loves me. Somehow I was trying to make it work with the memory of her wanting to drive me back to my brother's father in law, after I told her he sexually harassed me at the age of 12. And she didn't want to drive me back to hold him accountable,no. Her story was that they invited us again right after our visit because they had such a great time with us, and it would be impolite not to revisit.

Nasty to tell your kid you love her and teach her through your actions that love is sick, twisted and hurtful. It didn't go down well when I started dating...and when I continued dating...My definition of love is so marred that for now I don't even have one. I now know though exactly what love isn't..Lesson learned in the most cruel, excruciatingly painful way.

q1605 said...

It takes a hell of a lot to piss me off. I try not to filter my stories because people should know what these guys are capable of. And If someone wants to defend my mother or her actions They are already a lost cause. With my mother we all knew how bad she was but it is still easier to join ranks with her than to give her long suffering family the benefit of a doubt. I was just talking to my sister about how my exes family eventually condemned me and my sister instead of recognizing my mother for the lunatic she was. Once my ex pushed us out of the will no one wanted to side with us anymore. My exes family told me in the beginning via my ex that remember when all her murder crapola was current events from 60's era Dallas. Once they knew they might could hustle assets or antiques from her estate they started liking her more and the family members who bore the brunt of her less.

q1605 said...

Nothing you can ask me is inappropriate. What inappropriate was shoving me and my sister in front of a bus so they could line up and rob us blind. I still have to keep telling myself they didn't steal anything my mother didn't allow them to steal. They didn't steal from us they just took what my mother was giving away for free.

q1605 said...

Trust me if my last comment seemed harsh I thought you didn't understand I was there the night my father snuffed it. It'a common misconception and it's a tactic I use to get my point across.
It was my mom acting like mother Teresa and having her explaining a situation about something I was already painfully aware of and why I found her lies particularly offensive sister told me my mother's version about the head cradling issue etc. And I just though my god this woman has no shame. My mother knew I was there and that her lies would eventually make it to me> But my being there meant less to her than knowing one day I would hear her lie about that night. I am starting to ramble but if my mother had not chipped away at fathers sanity he wouldn't have done it. But she wants it all she wants to look like mother Teresa, lie about me and my father and to never be challenged about it. She doesn't get it all she needs to settle on one version of the truth.

q1605 said...

Lemme give this another shot. No you didn't bother me, not for an instant. I just can't believe what the record would reflect if my sister and I had not sat around and talked the way we do. With her claims to paying my rent. That would have gone unnoticed if my mother had not flipped out about our grandfather on my father's side coming over to fix my grandmother's screen door. The incident is legendary ......it was right out of the exorcist. With the head spinning and pea soup puke. Me and sis had already established the topic at hand but my sister kept tying it into the time period that my mother was making my rent. Once she said that, I had to get to the bottom of things. So I just asked when the hell did our mother every give us anything but a hard time? So she kept saying...That Sunday with the green puke spewing....THEN! And I said what makes you think she was making my rent.......Cuz she told us she was. It was just another shameless moments of hers that makes us all wonder what she told who about what that we'll never compare notes from. Cuz if she told my sister about running out to the yard like some blanch dubois and she'll tell it to people she knows might compare notes. She is sicker than we thought. And I might be shaking my head as I tell you another story but you won't get me pissed off.I was watching a doc. on Richard Pryer and the guys interviewed were talking about him growing up in a bordello and how they thought he was joking at first. But someone said something about if you get far enough away from it you can always make a joke about it. We ARE talking about events that are decades in the past. Like if you go back far enough my sister used to comment here a lot. Our running joke was that we understand my father shooting someone he just shot the wrong person. Ba dah dump

q1605 said...

I'mmm back! My tone of voice is more of a snicker when I recount the things she's done. Just knowing she was such a control freak and I am alive and free to say what I want and she is pushing up daisy's is something I find hilarious. It helps illustrate the wrongness of her as a family head. No one should be so sick of their parent that their death brings them...if not joy a sense of relief. There are people I know my mother smeared me to but they don't run it through the bullshit detector when it is easier to just condemn me and my sister and file us in the junk pile.
Look at it this way, me and sis din't go to our father funeral because of the shit she pulled before hand and she it was expressly forbidden by my ex to notify us of her death..I see a pattern forming and it's not that me and my sister are such fuck ups. Neither one of us went to either parents funeral.if that's all I had to go on I would default to "what kind of monster" was this woman? Not to I wonder what kind of kids she raised. Because we are what she made us.

Elli G said...

Oh ok. I see what happened here. I knew you were there that night, I remember he went out of his way to make sure you'd be there that night. It's just that my reading skills are waaay better than my writing skills and sometimes I might not get my point across, so like I told you I have carefully studied all your posts and all of the comments as well. And whenever I couldn't get something I would reread it. Perfectionism is a bitch...All I was trying to do is compare notes with you, as my "mother" keeps altering a particular lie like nobody's business. You can hear like 10 versions of the same story all contradicting like crazy and chronologically not so far apart either. If you try to point out to her that she does it first she finds a stupid excuse to combine the lies as the same part of the story, if you don't buy it she puts on the demented martyr's face that has too much on her head and you are torturing her by asking for the true version, and if you still don't buy it she screams her head of till you shut up.

Don't even get me started with people who automatically side with them no matter what. Two days ago I was introduced to a lady on an outing and as conversation rolled she started talking about how all parents by default love their children unconditionally because they are designed to do so based on nature's instincts. I bit my tongue so hard not to send her to go fuck herself that I believe I relived my birth experience, I turned all blue.

q1605 said...

My biggest problem with her as an adult was that I moved out at 15 when my father died and never lived with her again until I was in my 50's. Some how though I didn't forget the factual basis of her insanity I went back to the same denial I had about her through my adult life and caught it on the chin again after she had a stroke and I moved in to help her out.

mulderfan said...

Elli I do believe that a mother's love and protectiveness toward her child is a kind of primal instinct that all NORMAL mothers naturally have.They even put their child's needs ahead of their own.
IMO women like Q's mum are missing a gene or something that goes way beyond just having a screw loose! This makes it really hard for people with REAL mums to have the remotest idea that creatures like that even exist.

AND...the biggest problem with telling lies is that you have to keep track of them!

q1605 said...

Maybe it doesn't seem as over the top as I see it. I mean she drove this guy down like a dog and left me with lifetime perpetual PTSD. And she still tries to work some altruistic points out of the deal. May be it was listening to my sister tell me like she did the rent thing. That by the time I heard her side of the story she had ready bent it around to make herself look so good that I had to play catch up to set the record straight. It came off to me as sort of like when I talked to my dads sister years after he did it and she gave me this toss off remark that boiled down to" At least he didn't do that while you were around". It caught me off guard enough that I just got flushed and stupid feeling and just said Do What? And she said I know he cared enough about you to not drag you in the middle of all that. So I asked her where she got that idea and she says I just know my brother and I know he wouldn't do that to you. So I said not drag me in the middle of it???He went out of his way to put me in the middle of it and I proceeded to tell her what happened that night. It's sort of like that guy that went off on foot in Alaska camping and died of exposure. There are hundreds of people that printed t-shirts to commemorate his adventurous spirit. But when his family went on record of what they thought they all said it was really a chickenshit way for him to go out. Only a fool would do what he did. He knew the weather in Alaska could possible kill him but he went anyway. And How these people have turned it into some noble deed is beyond us. He left his wife and kids and all of to make sense of what he did. I 'll see if I can find something
http://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/how-chris-mccandless-died
about it and put a link up.

Elli G said...

Not as over the top? Puh-lease give her the credit she rightfully gained. Barb was so shamelessly rotten that makes most MN parents look like nice little old people. So how come no one ever beat the living shit out of her is beyond me.
And congrats for finding the patience to explain to your aunt what happened. Had I been in your shoes I would have just walked out on her repeating a few thousand times FUCK YOU in my head.
As for that Chris Mccandless guy as well as your father, whyyy I mean why do people do that stuff? Do they know something that we don't? Playing with their lives and sanity like an old deck of cards that could be shuffled and played with over and over again no matter how stupidly you bet.Reality called their bluff I guess.

q1605 said...

Elli the only thing that I don't get is how I can manage to be surprised by anything she did. her Will stuff was Barbara 101. I had not lived with her since I was 15 is my only explanation for being blinded sided again. I heard so many people that were incredulous about a guy hating his own mother that I re branded my self as the defective one rather than attributing to her what she did. Once I told her to f off she did exactly what she has always done. and that is to collect as many of my/our old friends as she could bend towards her will and listen in as they cheered her on to screw us harder than ever. If you have seen the movie "Animal house"? where they took the guys fathers new car out and welded a bunch of garbage to it right before they wrecked it and when he isweeping over what used to be his father's new car they tell him "you fed up you trusted us. It's kind of like that. I have no one to blame but me. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTF2j0OWUi8

q1605 said...

Yeah Mulderfan it is called "attachment theory". It that self preservation built into us all that perpetuates the species. If everyone was like them the human race wouldn't last two generations. My step daughter has a boy that will be two this summer. I look at that kid and all I can think of is protecting him from the out side world. I have no idea what my mother thought when she looked at us. Probably to look in the phone book for an exterminator to spray us.

Elli G said...

Mulderfan,
That was my catch22 till I had my own child who is now 32 months old. Not long ago I believed that it is impossible for my mother not to love me even though she acted like the bitch she is. The way I see it is that humans are somewhat intellectually higher species in the sense that their instincts alone are not what comes into play when they decide on how to act in real life situations. So this can be a defect when thoughts are selfish or faulty, the thinking process is what twists our instincts till they become non-functional.
For example, I can remember me as a very young kid repeating to myself that nobody loved me in my house and I just had to wait to move out as soon as I turned 18.Then I was taught in school that mothers are loving and caring, I was told in Sunday school that mothers make mistakes but there is no way they don’t love you, I was even told by my freakish mother every day that she loved me right after she would do or say something nasty to me. So enough nurturing and my initial instinct that I was not loved was strangled and repressed in some dark corner of my mind. Until I had my own child. Then it all came back to me and hit me like a ton of bricks. I could see myself actively deciding on what I wanted for her. I could make it easy on me and buy formula, but I decided to breastfeed for 2 and a half years. I could make it easy on me and let her cry it out, but I decided to co-sleep and stick myself in a bed corner with a leg hanging out all night for 2 years. But I knew that even though I want what is best for her and I did these things for her, there was also some selfishness involved. Breastfeeding saved me some bucks and co-sleeping allowed me not to have to get out of bed to feed her or soothe her at night.
What I am trying to say is that you are right, it is really hard for people with real mums to imagine that there are plain evil women not interested in their children’s welfare, hell it is even hard for ACONs to imagine that. But it is far more than a missing gene, it is the direct result of a constant, purely selfish thought process that has long ago deactivated any natural instincts that they might have carried. The annoying part about this lady is that she was talking to two awakened ACONs and one spouse of a deceased ACON and was trying to teach us how we were so lost for trashing our “holy parents.” The reason I didn’t actually tell her to fuck off is that I don’t like telling other people what to do, same as I don’t like other people telling me how to think and feel. I respected her right to her irritating opinion.
By the way, where is your blog? I am almost done reading all of Joan S’s posts and would love to read yours too.

Elli G said...

Q,
Two months ago I found myself in a psychiatrist’s office melting myself to tears for being so stupid to believe for an entire 30 years that my childhood was like any other child’s. I kept saying that I am a freaking idiot. He told me that all children believe that, and that I should not blame me, I am the only person not to blame here. This doc had met my mother when I was 16 so he knew her nature but couldn’t say much to me because I was a minor. His advice was to get the hell away from my mother and my brother because I have been poisoned and I need to figure out a way to flush my system. Blaming you for never being taught by anyone what normal is lets every person responsible off the hook. For that matter I would blame everyone else but you Q.

q1605 said...

I always knew my mother wasn't like other mothers but like you, I thought it was me. Only after I tried living with her and she essentially "threatened" me with violence or harm was when I realized she was insane. What she did was after we had a confrontation I went out of her house through the side door so I didn't have to deal with her. So she came out to the garage where I was working on my truck and she sticks her head out to tell me someone had been trying to break in the front" As soon a she said that I knew she was laying the ground work to possibly shoot me and claim she though I was an intruder. It was funny because right after that my sister told me her son was coming to Texas and wanted to stop by her house and she talked him out of it because she was afraid she would shoot him through the door. We both came up with this way of thinking without talking with each other about it. So it's not like we were egging each other on and magnifying benign actions on each of our parts.

mulderfan said...

Elli, my blog grew out of a therapist's recommendation that I write my story down as a way to heal. So I started as far back as I could remember and worked my way up to the present day. The guy was right because in the process I met other bloggers who'd had similar experiences and I learned more than I ever wished to know about malignant narcissists. It was validating to learn that I was a member of a pretty big club.

Along the way, I picked up a world-wide following. I'd post something and within minutes my tracker would show people reading MY truth and leaving supportive comments. It was so awesome, it became my obsession to detail every interaction with my narcs. One day, I looked in the mirror and realized as long as I blogged about them, the narcs in my life still occupied way too much space in my head. In that instant, I truly was healed!

Then, I did one of the hardest things I've ever done...I deleted the blog and all of the Word documents associated with it. Next, I had a damn good cry.

BUT, by then I had become friends with a few special bloggers, like Q, outside the blogs. I didn't go completely cold turkey because I follow a few blogs and comment, plus, I know Q and the others have my back whenever I need an ear.

Short answer to your question: I don't have a blog and hope I never need one again!

Elli G said...

Q,

for real she was allowed to even possess a gun? She had been found guilty for masterminding a guy's murder!

Mulderfan,
sorry your blog is not available anymore but good for you feeling healed. Any suggestions of other blogs would be great though.

I am still dreaming of the day I will initiate NC. Gotta wait a few more months. For now I resort to making her furious with every possible chance and I am loving it! Today I told her after not seeing her for like 10 days that my opinion is that she is not allowed to express her opinion about me or my life. Heheh,boy was she infuriated. But really I want it to be over, that's no way to live the rest of my life.

q1605 said...

She was acquitted of her murder charge with translates to being innocent in the eyes of the state of Texas. My step father brought a .32 back from Germany after WWII. And she had that. I don't know about any other guns she might of had in the house. One is more than enough for a motivate sociopath.

q1605 said...

I think the prosecution over reached and innocent of one charge made her innocent of all(legally) I don't know how it happened. it started when I was 8 and was over by the time I was 11. I just know what I was coached to say on the stand.

q1605 said...

Back then they didn't have what they call in texas the law of parties. It's where if one person kills someone in a act of violence everyone with them is equally guilty of murder. Back then they had one murder and got one conviction.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_murder_rule_(Texas)