Sunday, December 13, 2015

"All or Nothing Relationships" on Down the Rabbit Hole by Blogger Issendia

All-or-Nothing Relationships

I have some thoughts and observations that aren't coherent enough for a complete article, but might be useful to others even in undigested form. Here are some notes about the all-or-nothing approach many members of estranged parents' forums take toward reconciliations.

Parents who try to reconcile with their estranged adult children often describe themselves as "walking on eggshells." Their children make all the rules, blow up at random. They don't accept invitations enough, offer invitations enough, call enough, text enough, visit enough. The parents feel they're "begging for scraps." Eventually—after a few years, a few months, a few visits, a single visit—the parents back out of the relationship and tell the children they're willing to reconcile only on their own terms. As one mother said recently, "I am coming to realise that they don't want a normal family relationship with us. They want us to know our place and for the entire thing to be run on their terms. [....] So I've decided that we're not playing their games. They want to connect or they don't."
  • The relationship is described in terms of game-playing and control.
  • Expectation of rapid return to the previous close relationship. Lip service given to taking it slow.
    • Some parents do manage to take it slow, and report success in reconciling with their children. Other members congratulate them, then tell them why their methods wouldn't work in their own case. Powerful resistance to generalizing based on parents' behavior.
  • Black and white thinking: "They want to connect [for a definition of connection that I control, and right now it means returning to our previous "normal" relationship] or they don't."
  • Parent hasn't internalized the changes their children asked for. "Walking on eggshells," not working out new behavioral patterns.
  • Eggshells imply uncertainty. Parent doesn't know what their child will take offense to = doesn't understand what the problem was.
  • The boundaries the child sets for their own protection = games, rules, terms, control. The parent doesn't understand why the child feels the need to take those actions.
  • The parent reacts as though they'd been told to wear a raincoat and carry an umbrella on a hot, dry day.
  • No understanding of problem or its solution = reconciliation is bound to fail.
  • Strikingly, the parent ends the reconciliation while the child, usually the reluctant party, is still trying to reconcile. Parent interprets child's slow, measured, "wait and see" approach as the permanent status quo.
    • Parent stops trying to meet the child's demands ("stops walking on eggshells"), returns to old behaviors, demands that the child meet their expectations, confirms their child's fear that Mom/Dad hasn't changed a bit. Child re-estranges. Parent interprets this in a way complimentary to the parent.
    • Or, parent loses self-regard because she perceives herself as submitting to the child's control and accepting disrespectful behavior. (Disrespect = not as much contact as the parent wants.) She ends the relationship because it's easier on her to have no relationship than to have a partial relationship.
    • Parents who describe their estrangement as life-shattering, devastating, the worst pain they've ever experienced, return to estrangement if the reconciled relationship is too distant for their liking.

    • Parents often get offers from their estranged or formerly estranged adult children to meet their grandchildren. There are usually restrictions: Meet only in a public place, both parents have to be present, meetings will be short and infrequent, etc. Parents interpret the offers as an attempt to make them bond with the grandchildren so the children can use the grandchildren against them. Parents who did bond with their grandchildren, then had the grandchildren taken away, warn them that losing contact with grandchildren is horrifically painful. Parents may decide not to meet their grandchildren in order to protect themselves.
      Adult children offer to let their parents meet the grandchildren because they consider it a step in reconciliation, because they feel sorry for the grandparents, out of a sense of duty, because they believe children should have grandparents even if the grandparents are bad enough that the parents cut them off, etc. The restrictions are partially for safety, and partially to reduce the chance that a grandparent will form a close bond. Estranged adult children don't want close bonds between their children and their estranged parents. Adult children don't enjoy arranging meetings between their estranged parents and their children, and are often doing it for the sake of the grandparents. The expectation is that if the grandparent does well with a period of supervised meetings, they can be allowed more time with the child, less supervision, etc.
      When grandparents turn the offer down, the children interpret it as "The grandparent wants a relationship on their terms, or no terms at all."
      • Once again, the estranged parent perceives the relationship as being about control.
      • Expectation of rapid reconciliation; initial distance perceived as permanent.
      • Backs away from the relationship while the adult child is still trying to reconcile.
      • Black or white thinking: Estranged parents do indeed say they want to "be allowed to be a grandparent" (according to their definition of being a grandparent = on their terms), or they don't want to have a relationship at all.
      • Parents think they can refuse the meeting without damaging the reconciliation, or alternatively, they think the offer means their child is trying to manipulate them, and it's a sign that they should back away.
      • Catastrophic failure of understanding: Adult children don't know their parents are desperately afraid of bonding with the grandchildren and then losing them; parents don't know the adult children view the meeting as a step in reconciliation.
        • Solution? Tell the other side the missing piece of the puzzle?
          • Adult children would reply, "We don't want to pull the kids away from you. All you have to do is follow our guidelines, and everything will be fine." Parent doesn't understand the problem that the guidelines are meant to solve, interprets "Follow our guidelines" as "Obey us, do whatever we say, give us control over you"; reconciliation is doomed, adult children will withdraw again, taking the grandkids with hem.
          • Or adult children make promises: "We would never cut you off from your grandchildren." Common when adult children have a poor grasp of the situation and/or unhealthy attitudes about problematic family members; "having a unicorn." Promises can prolong a relationship that's going sour, and don't prevent estrangement.
          • Simply comforting the parent isn't an option. Reassurances don't mean anything unless they're backed by promises, plus reassurance can encourage the parent to feel more secure than they are and return to their usual behavior.
          • Parents would be angry at being "tested": "Either they want to reconcile, or they don't." The adult child is viewed as the one with the problem, so the parent has nothing to prove.
              • Parents who think their child is trying to trick them into bonding with the grandchild as a means of control are already deep into thought patterns that lack perspective, indicate a failure of empathy (in the formal sense = being able to put oneself in another's shoes).
            • Conclusion: Adult children can't offer valid reassurance. They're willing to continue the relationship only if the parent changes their behavior, and because the parent doesn't understand what needs to change and why, change comes only through forced adherence to rules that parents see as arbitrary.
            • Conclusion: Parents can't believe that their children are sincere until experience convinces them; spoken words won't budge the paranoia. The necessary experience is a successful relationship with adult child and grandchild that outlasts the parents' paranoia. Paranoia encourages parents to back out of the relationship in fear, or to misinterpret their children's actions and sabotage the reconciliation.

          • Both situations arise from the same core conflict:
            Child is willing to have a relationship with the parent IF the parent will change. The child expects the change to take a while, needs proof that the parent has truly changed. The child's ideal future relationship is different from the original, unsatisfactory relationship.
            Parent considers change unnecessary, is insulted by the request, feels controlled by the child. The parent resents being judged and tested, has no understanding of the problem and therefore has no understanding of how long the child will take to trust them again. The parent's ideal future relationship is similar to the original, satisfactory relationship.
            Child is waiting for parent to change.
            Parent is waiting for child to stop this foolishness.
            No change in the parent = no change in the child = reconciliation fails.

            Not all reconciliations fail. Some parents say they had one or more failed reconciliations before succeeding, and the successful reconciliation had "give and take."
            • Humans want give and take in all relationships. No one wants to be in a relationship where they feel controlled, reardless of the reasons.
            • Skeptical about the degree of honest give and take in formerly estranged parents' relationships.
              • Personality-disturbed people are inaccurate self-reporters, very poor observers of other people.
              • Initial lack of give and take in a parent-child relationship is meant to offset the parent's psychological power over the child. Estranged parents use this power freely, deny its existence just as freely.
              • People who are used to an unequal balance of power interpret the correction of the balance as inequality. (See: the Republican party.)
              • Alternate possibility: Previous failed reconciliations knocked off some of the parents' sharp corners? Parents did change enough to at least partially satisfy their children?
              • Alternate possibility 2: Previous failed reconciliations convinced the children that the parents weren't going to change, caused them to lower their standards?
              • Same mechanism working in reverse if the child was the problem in the relationship, with the usual note that normal parents of disordered children go elsewhere for support and don't end up in estranged parents' communities. Disordered parents of disordered children are present in abundance, however.

              • If an estranged adult child is reading this, reconciliation is not impossible. I'm looking at a population self-selected for intense, enduring estrangements and poor empathy. If you're considering trying a reconciliation, my advice is:
                • Ask yourself whether your parent has shown signs of actual change. Hoping and wishing that they'll change aren't signs.
                • Expect them to want to move much faster than you want to. Be prepared to manage their expectations.
                  • Be prepared for them to black out your attempts to manage their expectations.
                • Expect them to change much more slowly than you want them to. If they don't understand what the problem is, you'll have to train them out of each behavior individually, and this will take time. Expect them to use any change in circumstances as a reason to backslide. Expect them to backslide if you're not consistent and persistent with consequences.
                  • Ask yourself whether the amount of training and maintenance you'll need to do is manageable for you. Revisit the question periodically.
                  • Don't push past the current limits of your training, even for special occasions. ("We said she couldn't see the baby yet, but it's Christmas...")
                  • Don't introduce your kids into the situation until your parent is well and truly behaving, and has done so for a while.
                  • Accept that it may take multiple estrangements and reconciliations before you and your parent truly reconcile. Just as your parent may not have believed there was a problem in the relationship until you cut them off, they may not believe you're serious about what you're asking of them until you've shown them that you'll cut them off again.
                • If it's safe to be emotionally open with them, talk with them about their needs and expectations. Be open to some input. (This is a tightrope walk between being open to them, giving them the impression that they have more say than they do, and letting them undermine you.)
                • If it's not safe to be emotionally open with them, don't reconcile.
                • If you read the second-to-last bullet point and decided they weren't safe, then you read the last bullet point and decided that no, really, they're safe, then your parents aren't safe. Don't reconcile with them until you don't feel pressure to lie to yourself about them.
                And, most importantly:
                • Under no circumstances will the responsibility for either training your parent, or dealing with the effects of their bad behavior, fall on your spouse or children. This is not a "do" or a "don't." This is not a request. This is not a suggestion. This is the Universe speaking. YOU train your parent, YOU deal with their toxicity. You do not push your children or your spouse into firing range, any more than you would push them out from behind cover when there was a shooter on the loose.

32 comments:

mulderfan said...

So much here that if I wrote a comment about the various parallels, you'd have to put a hard cover on it and stick it on a bookshelf.

One thing I've always been curious about is how my parents, an hour's drive away, expected to see me every couple of weeks or so and got pissy when I got married, had a child, held a full-time job and, in order to fulfill all of my responsibilities, began to only visit once a month. I DID call every weekend like clockwork and god help me if I didn't call when I was "supposed" to. At the time, I was NOT trying to reduce contact, just trying to juggle a busy life.

Here's what I don't get. In their early thirties, these same people got on a boat, came to Canada with their two kids, and left their parents for good. My dad never saw his parents again nor did they see their grandchildren. My maternal grandmother made one visit to Canada before she died. Long after their parents' deaths there were a couple of visits back home, mostly for my dad to show off to his siblings how much money they had!

When I recently got sucked back into the insanity, the old man demanded that I drive down every single day and bitched about my daughter, a full time college student, in a relationship, not tagging along. Because the NGC lives very close by, the expectations on him were even greater and when he didn't come through the old man declared, "He's dead to me."

But then, double standards are pretty much a way of life for narcs!

q1605 said...

They're very transactional in their approach on life. Mines dead. She's going to remain dead. My give a fuck is running out to the degree that have to paste posts from other blogs, because I can't generate one on my own. That must mean I don't really give a fuck. If she was so fucked up that she'll "take it with her" that must mean she was delusional enough to think she was a good mother. And she'll continue to be dead. Fuck her and the horse my ex wife rode in on.

mulderfan said...

Same with my blogging these days, Q.

I got nothing left for any of them. No hate, anger, guilt or love...NOTHING! Not a single fuck is given And it feels awesome!

q1605 said...

I think my biggest problem at this stage is that I hear you are supposed to grieve over the loss of a mother. I think I feel guilty because all I can be is relieved knowing she can't hurt us anymore.

Judith said...

I grieve the loss of the mother I never had and the death of the idea that my mother held any affection for me.

The whole grandchild thing -- like you say, it's transactional to my parents. And I feel like my son spending time with them is a sign to them that they are ok and great people, it's me who is the defective one because, "see, our grandchild likes to spend time with us."

I felt kind of betrayed when I found out my son had spent time with my parents when he was in Boston even though I never said he shouldn't. I feel bad for feeling that way because it's not my kid's job to keep my feelings safe from them.

q1605 said...

It's sort of like sliding into home plate. You hope they'll pull it out at the last second and for them it's that one last chance to knife you all over again. Once your kids are 18 you have to let them do what they want. My advice to the next generation would be to hold out for more than I got.

q1605 said...

I still have my mother's lapdog to contend with tho. If she (my ex) can take food out of the mouths of kids that were dragged through the shit me and my sister were dragged through she can have it. All I can add to that is what goes around comes around.

Judith said...

I think ultimately people like your ex and mother and my mother have miserable existences. They'd deny it of course & they take their meager evil jollies in hurting us. But at the end of the day, underneath it all they know they are hollow, unloveable shells.

q1605 said...

It's really an oxymoron. People that go to all kind of lengths to appear happy and have people gush over them are the most miserable people you will ever find. My mother sat around and mumbled under her breath all her life. My ex swore that all her friends just wanted to use her. For what I don't know, but it's all she ever talked about. I think it was projection. She never gave a soul an even break and she thought we were all just like her.

Joan S said...

My mother would be fighting with my children, over the tv, over anything. When my daughter told my mother that she could sleep in her room, but not touch anything on her dresser, my daughter expected mother to respect that boundary. but oh no, that threw mother into a fit. Mother said that my daughter was expecting her to touch her stuff, and what a little bitch she was.

I told my mother that I was tired that night, please stop fighting with her, mother began mocking me and repeating what I said. And teased me horribly for it.

I have an autistic grandchild which mother started calling retarded. And told all our family members that I had a retarded grandchild. I started staying away from mother for that, for it would hurt my daughter.

Elli G said...

It's always projection. This past Friday I confronted the momster on the phone and got to the point where I had to scream for her to stop her projections. So apparently it's my fault that a pedo attacked me right in front of her, my fault she stopped talking to me for 7 months for undisclosed reasons, my fault I have witnesses to prove that she is lying because according to her I set up conversations, my fault that my grandma was allowed to call me a cunt day in day out, and my fault that I am confronting her and not giving her the credit she deserves. Earth to projection land, can you hear me?

They always believe people are like them and they try to outsmart us, that is their twisted logic. That's why to them being nice is a sign of weakness. They believe that everyone is a cold hearted bastard out to exploit them but some of us have the vulnerability of being nice at the same time. Sick to the bone...

q1605 said...

Elli, I would have never gone no contact if I could have carried on a normal volume conversation with my mother. A meaningful dialogue was seen by her as losing an argument, and something she would never do. I would shout to her to get her to "listen to me" and she would shout louder to drown me out and so on and so on until the volume went to about eleven on a scale of ten, and whoever she was arguing with would give up and walk away and she could declare victory. I swore to myself that last time I was not going to give in and not going to surrender. Until she told me I dreamed up her trial for first degree murder while I was high and tried to tell me it never happened. I had never heard of NPD at this point in time But I know crazy when I see it and that's when it dawned on me she was either crazy or mentally ill and probably both. That period of time was one that owned our family and she just wanted me to dismiss it and the affect it had on our family as if it never happened. So I hung up on her and she beat it to an attorney to cut me out of her will and put my ex wife in. I call that a bargain the best I ever had to quote "The Who" The years between that night and learning of her death second hand were the most peaceful years of my existence. Still are.

q1605 said...

Joan I was watching Calipornication Last night and the teenage girl's father, to put it mildly, is an arrested adolescent. So he is chugging along drinking and chasing skirts and he sort of fobs responsibility for his actions off on him living the role of an eccentric writer. So in the midst of his latest peccadillo and the looming storm of her mother getting ready to dump her father...She just looks up at him with innocent brown eyes and asks him "who's in charge here"? You and mom are the adults and you guys ain't cutting it. I'm too young and you guys obviously don't care about how your shit storms affect the people living in this house with you. She's an only child so it was her long winded way of saying..... ME! It was a poignant scene and illustrates how in these dynamics the people who really bear the brunt of these things most usually carry the least amount of weight.

mulderfan said...

When my daughter was about 8 years old my father accused my husband of trying to kill him during a game of golf and disowned me. The story is so convoluted and ridiculous I'd have to write a book to explain it. So, the old man is out of our lives but my mum begged to be allowed to see her grandchild. This is WAAAY back (25 years ago) before I realized she was an equal partner and my folks were a kind of abusive tag-team, so not being a complete idiot, I wouldn't let my daughter visit them but let my mum come to my house every couple of weeks. She would push past me at the door without a word and go visit up in my daughter's bedroom then leave without a word. After a few visits my daughter came to me all upset because she said her grandma was saying bad things about daddy.
Next time I met my mother at the front door and told her I knew what she had been doing and from now on I'd supervise the visits.
OK, don't know where I was going with this story but as I'm typing it boggles my mind what an absolute moron I was back then! Shortly after this crap I broke NC because no one else had the balls to go tell my dad his twin had been killed in a car accident. Even in that circumstance I barely escaped being physically assaulted by the old man as he accused me of making it up.
Jesus...I fucking hate when these memories pop up to remind me just how much control those freaks had over me!

q1605 said...

Damn Elli, I just reread your comment and it sounds like they have you surrounded. There is a point where going along to get along does little else but compromise your sanity. I cared for my mother and my family but when it came down to me or them I picked me.

q1605 said...

Joan, that reminds me of the devious ways my mother would let you know she was not above combing through your possessions. I had a receipt or some other scrap of paper I needed to keep and I had it buried under a stack of books and other papers and clothes I needed to wash. So I leave for the day and come back and she hands me the bit of paper telling me she "found it" and do I want it thrown away. To get to this paper she would have to have moved stacks of magazines and socks and underwear. So this was her chipping away at my privacy letting me know nothing of mine was sacred to her.

q1605 said...

Mulderfan they really are all alike. Except my psychopath mother back handedly warned me that killing me was something she was quite capable of. After I went out her front door to avoid her she asked me if I knew there was someone trying to break in the door I just walked out from. Which to me meant watch it buddy I have no problem shooting you and claiming I thought you were a burglar. And the one time I left one of my step daughters there she asked me to never leave her there alone again. Seems as soon as I left my mother pulled a dining room chair over and hemmed her in and started giving her the third degree about me and her mother.

Elli G said...

It would be no exaggeration to say that 95% of the people that have surrounded me as family, dates, and friends were deeply disturbed individuals. That is firstly because my immediate family of origin are all twisted. The only somewhat sane person was my dad, who left running as fast as he could without looking back when my mom threatened to kill him one night they were fighting. He never gave a shit about me though so that wasn't much help. Secondly, my standards were really low to none considering the aformentioned family so all the mentally challenged that were rejected by everyone else were mostly welcome to be with me. And I had no boundaries so if they were bad, they would get worse with me. Lastly, my confidence and sense of self were ripped out of me, chewed upon, thrown on the floor and stepped on so many times that I wasn't a very attractive company for any normal person. What saved me is that I met my husband, who is much like me, and through our personality clashes that stemmed from both of us spending too much time with Cluster Bs, we managed to evolve and together we form a complete individual. It did take a lot of misunderstanding and fights though....

Elli G said...

Q,

about the privacy that you mentioned to Joan. My entire life I had been suffering from telephone phobia because she would pick up the phone in the living room and listen to all of my conversations when I was in my room talking to friends, then give me a terrible time for the way that I spoke and my choice of words. When I would talk in front of her she would talk over my voice, and not let me listen to the other person on the end of the line. After the call would be over she'd tell me how I don't know how to communicate and what to say when I call again. And it wasn't about respect of my privacy, it was, it is and always has been about control. In her eyes you were a muppet, she had to control you and every single thing about you.

q1605 said...

Elli Do you think our mothers were twins separated at birth? My mother would get on the phone the year I was living at her house. By then I was in my mid 50's. I had moved in with her after she had a stroke. I don't know how I could tell she was on the phone, but I could. I think there was some echo feedback effect. I don't know if she was gaslighting me or just taunting my lack of privacy. About 6 months before she died, I don't know what kind of shape she was in healthwise but instead of calling me for whatever reason she called. She still wouldn't call me on my phone but called the cellphone of this woman barber who had a shop next to my glass shop and who's number she had kept on her caller ID from two years before. When I first went NC. I wished I could shed some light on any of what I just wrote. Less than six months later she was dead and took it all with her to the grave. TW says they die like they lived and I think she is right.

Elli G said...

Q, I'll tell you what. I am not a person to easily get hooked on a blog or website, even more to comment at all. The first blog that I knew was totaly all about my case was Lisette's and by reading your comments over there I discovered yours. The similarities are uncanny. I know about the echo feedback effect you are talking about, I just know it! The problem with them is that they always give you some bastardized truth, even if the old bag was still alive she'd never give you the real version of events just for funsies. My grandma used to tell her that she'd die alone, back then I couldn't get why since she has two children to take care of her, now I know what she meant.

q1605 said...

Elli On your next to last comment. It becomes so crystal clear in hindsight, but when you are drowning in it, it's impossible to see. My mother seduced my sisters boyfriend and set up my father's boss and robbed and murdered him. Well they say, shit happens. Don't be so judgemental. Then after my father killed himself and it was more of the same. Get outta my way chumps I have to find a new husband. And so it goes and so it went. I don't bring that crap up to say look who had the biggest screw ups surrounding us. It's more like look at the shit my mother pulled and smoke and mirrored her way out of it. If she can get away with what she got away with what chance do the rest of us have? I mean she was tried for murder in a court of law and even THEY couldn't make it stick. So it was put the kids back in harm's way. C ya wouldn't want to be ya. She really was a black hole that sucked all good into it and it was seen no more. I like to use the K/T boundary as an analogy for her. That's the line in the dirt where before that you find dinosaurs and all sorts of plants and wildlife, but something (they suspect a huge asteroid) hits the earth and all of the life above that line disappears. That my mother and our family. We were a prosperous bunch of people. There were cousins and uncles and relations galore. But if you plot things like income and networth and numbers of relatives she is born and it is all gone. And fair enough. Someone needs to finish what she started and put us out of our misery. The most surprising thing was all the people that thought she was the best thing since sliced bread. I don't think any of them bothered to go to her funeral.

q1605 said...

Elli....I just came in to give full disclosure as to why I always feel compelled to take the edge off things I say. Over time I have been accused of embellishing and "comparing instead of sharing". It makes me wonder how many take my story as me lording my self over others as the "king of dysfunctional families" Truth be known, I look back on what I got as equal parts embarrassment and horror. I would go shopping in stores in my home town and the women working there followed me throughout. Now I guess they followed most kids as protection from shoplifters but back then I read it as me being the kid whose mother was on her way to prison. I got in fights after school, and basically grew up without a father. Or one that was spellbound by the prospect of having sex later with my mother. My mother would be gone most of the day screwing other men and she would coach me how to lie to him when he got in from work. Which brought untold guilt on me when she drove him to suicide. That is, I felt complicit in his death. I know better now. But for a long time I didn't. I wouldn't wish my upbringing on a dog. I am not proud of a single minute of being raised by those maniacs. But if my story can help someone else through a rough patch, maybe it will help balance my karmic load. People seem to forget that behind every act of crazy you see on TV there is a whole litany of people just like me who gets hit by the ripple effect of this kind of garbage and is never heard from again.

Elli G said...

Q,

I think you should care more about the people who read your stuff and think that you just get them. You get IT, and the "it" is what you described: not fun at all! Whoever suggests that comparing is what you do should rethink the motives of their N. They are not any different than Barb's. I for one appreciate full on honesty, so keep telling it as is and whoever sees this as a competition I have a friendly advice for them: Fuck off!

Joan S said...

My mother was always having sex too. One of my early memories is that we always had to play outside, parents were always having sex. After their breakup, men were lining up for it. And the last few months of contact I had with her, she was always talking of being so horny. I tried to fix her lunch, she told me to go find her a man instead. It isn't her mouth that's hungry.

I know, sorry, just had to get that out. I can't imagine being this way with any of my children. It would be just sickening. But she would be calling everyone else a tramp.

mulderfan said...

I'm becoming more and more convinced there's a narcissist's playbook that's used worldwide. There's just too many parallels when a bunch of ACONs start commenting on theses blogs. This would make a great story-line for an X-files movie.

q1605 said...

Yeah Mulderfan we/they think they are all snowflakes in the sun. But how special do you have to be to bully kids out of their metaphorical lunch money?
And what is up with that Joan. My mother was the cheapest slut in three counties but that was the first shot she would take at another woman. Even lawyers and sharks show each other professional courtesy. I guess not cheap sluts.
Elli there was a specific group that has made me defensive about it. Those were pretty direct quotes from a woman who was a regular contributor here. I actually like her. But there was another woman who crazied the place up more than I could ever sound and she picked that time to divide and conquer. And took her blog private and they all went private and had secret handshakes and passwords and from what I could tell they liked to get in there and wag their tongues about yours truly. But I have been gun shy since then. I know my story is all f'ed up. I almost don't believe it and I was there.
If you want a thorough synopsis of the actual event my good friend Jonsi pretty well cover it here
http://jonsi-jonsi.blogspot.com/2012/10/who-fuck-died-and-made-you-mayor.html
If you don't like petty squabbles she still has a hell of a blog.

q1605 said...

And Elli ....thanks for the shout out. I appreciate the kind words. If you go to Jonsi's post and find someone you know and like mentioned in a negative light far be it from me to tell you who you can hang out with here there or anywhere.

Tundra Woman said...

I read daily at a public forum for Estranged Parents and have been for about a year to get a feel for the overall themes and the various long term posters' take on their Estranged ACs. Blogger Issendai's observations are very accurate from my experience as well. Paraphrasing heavily from her Indroduction to "Down the Rabbit Hole" she states (para), "...I thought like hell would abusers get together and discuss their abuse...I was wrong. The key to finding them is to research "Estranged Parents" or "Grandparents Righs." She is also very cogniscent of the limitations of her investigation into the world of Family Estrangements and the alleged "epidemic" of AC's estranging from their parents/ families "for no good reason."
EPs do indeed all go to the same Hell Demon College. Few admit having ANY idea why their ACs estranged despite many of the posters having MULTIPLE AC's who terminated or have severely curtailed (LC, vLC) their interactions with their "Parents." Everyone and everything ELSE is responsible for this breech in relationships-except them, typically a vengeful ex, nasty in-laws, the phase of the moon etc. Occasionally one of them will drop a bomb very casually, in an oh-by-the-way style that includes some very serious long term Mental Health problems-but of course that must be only incidental to the NC and is useful only to support the legendary "suffering" of the EP. (Cluster Bs, BiPolar etc.) Whether or not they have received on-going treatment etc. for their diagnosed MH issues is never in my experience discussed: MH issues are only relevant to the effects of the estrangement on the poster, not the effects on the AC growing up with a clearly impaired parent(s). In any event, the vast majority have never received any formal MH dx. which is not surprising considering they do not see any of their patterns of on-going behavior as having any effect on their ACs/Estrangement. Yet it's patently obvious where the problems lie to any casual observer-and for the long term posters (the ones that stick around this forum) it's not the AC.
They state they "love" their ACs yet-
They do NOT wish their ACs well at all. They anxiously await the "Karma Bus" to mow their ACs down, the ACs children or child to estrange at soon as possible in early adulthood, as well as stating such inciteful "remedies" as Execution (because, "We have the death penalty for espionage!"), what amounts to Stalking behavior, engaging in classic Smear Campaigns IRL etc. But it's not them, OHHELLNO. These patterns of continuing behavior guarantee the AC will have continuing confirmation for their Estrangement. It's all about Power and Control, "this generation" of ACs (which covers teens to 60+ yr. olds) and our alleged desire to "torture" our EPs, etc. As as Issendai observes, "The world of Estranged Parents is amazing." Indeed. What is also amazing is the lack of introspection, maturity despite chronological age or ability to empathize with anyone-aside from one another: Chilling.
TW

q1605 said...

I am positive my mother went to her grave thinking she was the best mother on record. If they can exist in that kind of denial they are pretty sick. It reminds me of muammar gaddafi. People that were close to him in the end said he had no idea why "his people" were turning on him. For years he had been dragging folks out of their houses and putting bullets in the back of their heads or the heads of their family members and couldn't separate cause and effect. I think my mother didn't connect her murder trial and my father's suicide with herself. To her they were just random acts that were not tied to her in anyway. She pissed and moaned about there being a curse on the family. In that regard she was right and the curse was her.

mulderfan said...

One of the last VMs my father left urging my daughter and me to visit my dying mother (he had no idea we'd been there the day before), he ended by saying "she was a wonderful mother". Given the mind set I was in by the time he left that VM, if he'd said it in person my reply would've been,"If she was so damn wonderful, why didn't she get her kids away from YOU?"

The old fart once said, "You've done nothing to deserve parents like us." Meaning I was a piece of shit and they were wonderful parents. I smiled and said, "You're absolutely right." which they both took as a compliment.

Jesu,s Q talk about not getting cause and effect! The old man calls me a loser, liar, thief, forger...you name it and two days later tells me to go visit my mother. When I ask why he would want a liar, forger, thief, etc. to go visit his wife, in reply he calls me a moron and next day leaves a VM asking for my help. DUH????

These narcs aren't stupid but they sure are dumb and predictable, always predictable!

q1605 said...

And you really don't know what to do with the way they act. It's so disarming to see someone do something and they immediately deny it. My ex was really bad about that. I saw her walk into a guy's apartment and brought it up later and she denied it. I said I SAW YOU and she asked/told me to prove it. When people shit on you and to get them to acknowledge it you have to act like a prosecutor in a criminal court it's time to go.